Michael Roth, Chairman of the Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee has visited Georgia. Within the framework of the visit, Roth met with the President, leaders of opposition parties and representatives of the non-governmental sector of Georgia , while "Georgian Dream" refused to have an audience with him...

For what purpose and messages did he come to Georgia, how does he respond to the criticism of the government representatives, which affects both his statements and his personality, what does he have to say to the Georgian society and the political spectrum a month and a half before the elections - Michael Roth spoke in an exclusive interview with Interpressnews and TV Palitranius...

Mr. Roth, your visit to Georgia is one of the most discussed topics of the current week. Within the framework of the visit, you held a number of meetings. How would you evaluate these meetings, what were the main topics of your discussion, and what are your main messages as a representative of the German government?

First of all, let me express my gratitude to many people on the streets, in the restaurants, in cafés who welcome me in a very friendly and kind way. I'm really impressed. I'm here because I learned to love this amazing country which belongs to the very heart of Europe. I'm here, and that's my simple mission, to do my very best to support this wonderful country on its way towards EU. Unfortunately, within the last years, many anti-democratic measures has been introduced, and I hope I can play a little role in bringing back this country back on track. That means we are vitalising the Euro-Atlantic perspective of Georgia, because that's exactly what the overwhelming majority of the Georgians do want.

Several representatives of the Georgian government made statements regarding your visit. According to them, you came here only to support the opposition and that is why they refused to meet with you. The Speaker of the Parliament, Shalva Papuashvili, said: "As I understand, he has come to support the opposition, and probably the opposition will line up to meet him - this person insulted the Georgian people, so we have no desire to meet him." The mayor of Tbilisi, Kakha Kaladze, also commented: "A person who is mostly busy with insulting statements, at least he remembered himself with this - we hear from him statements made against the church, faith and, in general, the peace of the country." Accordingly, I don't even know the purpose of coming to Georgia, and frankly, I have no interest." They evaluate your visit as an attempt to interfere in the elections. How would you respond to the criticism that you have come here to influence the elections and that the representatives of the ruling "Georgian Dream" will not meet you until "you will not apologize?"

Thank you for the question. I wonder why the ruling party and the government have such a little self-confidence. I'm into politics for more than 26 years. I was always involved into foreign and European policy. It's part of my job description to travel to other countries, not to teach but to listen to each other. Always, always and everywhere, I meet representatives of government, parliament, opposition, civil society, media, except one country worldwide, that's Georgia. Obviously, the ruling party, Georgian Dream, the government, is not willing and able to meet me. Maybe there is a huge misunderstanding. Criticism doesn't mean to insult a country or to insult distinguished colleagues. Criticism is the essence of a vivid democracy, and I feel committed to the people here in the country. Again, the vast majority of the Georgians is in favor of joining the European Union as soon as possible. But I'm here on behalf of the majority of the German Bundestag. My view of the anti-democratic policies of the ruling party is exactly that what the majority of the EU member states, what the EU institutions send as a message to Tbilisi. So it's a bit strange to paint me as a fringe voice.

I'm not isolated. This government leads this wonderful country into isolation. Maybe they don't like me because I'm a social Democrat. But don't forget, when I was here in May, I was a member of a cross-party delegations from many European countries, We represent national conservative parties, liberal parties, conservative parties, and I was the only social democrat. Two weeks ago, senior parliamentarians, very important parliamentarians from the German parliament, this spokesperson for foreign affairs, visited this country and nobody in the government wanted to meet them. My motto for more than 26 years, is that dialog is the key. It's always better to talk to each other than just about each other. But okay, I have more time to meet the state president, to meet other politicians, to meet civil society activists.

This year, your statements regarding religion were heavily criticized by the authorities and clergy of Georgia. Regarding the future of the country, you asked how a bright future can be created for Georgia without the young generation, only with the Orthodox Church, which is one of the closest allies of the ruling party. In June, you wrote on the social network: "Freedom of religion and criticism of religion are inseparable. That's how democracy works. All churches, religions and believers must accept criticism. Some people still have problems with this: in my case Georgian Orthodoxy and again Islam." This statement is one of the reasons why the representatives of the Georgian government demand an apology from you. Considering the reaction that followed your position in Georgia, what would you say today? Would you repeat the same or would you adjust your own statement at least a little? (How justified was it on your part to make such a statement in a country where the majority of the population is Orthodox and church related topics are very sensitive)

I fully understand because I'm also sensitive if it comes to religion. I do believe in God. I'm a very active, engaged, Protestant Christian. My impression is that I personally go more often to my church, and I visit more often services of my church than all these people here in your country who criticize me for my remarks regarding the Orthodox Church. In all liberal democracies, there is one mutual understanding.

Freedom of Religion and the right to criticize a religion or a Church are two sides of the same coin. I didn't criticize the Church for religious reasons. No, I just emphasized what the people here in your country taught me, that the church is not just a religious institution, it's also a political actor. And that should be normal in a democracy to criticize a church if the church enters the political arena, that's it. And I'm not respectful, because as a religious person, I expect from others that they respect my religion, my church. But it doesn't mean that I'm criticulous. That's a very strange understanding of democracy.

In addition to the criticism of the statements made by you on various issues, there is criticism from the government representatives directly regarding your person, and probably you are already informed about this. Among them, you are the object of criticism from their side, as an active defender of the LGBT community. What do you think of the campaign being waged against you in this regard?

One of the reasons why I learned to love this country and the people is their long history of tolerance, diversity, and openness. Georgia is a country which can be proud of peaceful coexistence between many, many minorities, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, cultural minorities, but also sexual minorities. And that's why I'm shocked that the ruling party tries to manipulate the people here against LGBTI. Sorry, I have no idea if you are gay or straight, I don't care. But it's our common obligation to respect minorities. And that's what I expect from these politicians, and that should be the normality in the European Union. We should be diverse without any fears. And this is my private thing. And it's a disgrace that people here in your country don't feel safe because of their sexual identity. And if you think this is weird guy from Germany, this is a clear expectation from the European Union and from my government. This anti-LGBTI law is a disgrace. And please come back to the proud history of Georgia to respect people regardless their face, regardless their background, regardless their gender, regardless their sexual identity. That makes a country stronger.

On August 1, the law "On transparency of foreign influence" came into force in the country. The law obliges non-governmental and media organizations to register with the National Public Registry Agency as an organization carrying the interests of a foreign power, if more than 20% of their income is received from abroad. You were an active opponent of the adoption of this law. During a meeting with civil society representatives, you called it a "poison to democratic culture" and said that the law should be repealed. Could you explain again what problem do you see in the implementation of this law? Why do you think it will make the activities of non-governmental organizations worse, when the government claims that the purpose of the law is only transparency, and many western countries have similar laws?

I just invite the political leaders here in your country to listen very carefully what the EU Commission said. There is no chance to start accession talks with the European Union if this country doesn't withdraw this law. I'm very familiar with this law because many authoritarian regimes like Russia, worldwide, introduce such a law. Nobody needs such a law to criminalize, to stigmatize civil society activists. I don't understand why leaders here in your country are not proud of this rich landscape of civil society activists. In this regard, Georgia is a role model for many other countries. Be proud of the vivid but also critical civil society landscape. I would like to assure you, when I'm in touch with civil society activists in my own country, they criticize me as well. That's normal. I very much hope that these amazing institutions, organizations, full in line with the desire of the Georgian society to join the European Union, to become part of this amazing family, that these organizations don't give up.

And about their statement that some European countries have similar laws, that's not true. That's a lie. The The Hungarian government and the Hungarian ruling party passed such a law. But the European judiciary sent a very clear message to Hungary: you have to withdraw this law. And that's exactly what happened. Stop this conspiracy theories. Stop this lies. Just bring Georgia back on a common ground of truth, facts, and figures, and not fake use.

In the background, when organizations with foreign funding have to be registered in the register, the Government of Georgia creates a grant program for non-governmental organizations. As Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze announced at the government meeting on September 9, the first grant programs will be funded from January 1 next year, and many millions are planned to be allocated for this purpose. At the same time, the Prime Minister also noted that those who did not register in the "Russian Law" register should not receive a grant intended for Georgian non-governmental organizations, and this initiative should be shared only by those non-governmental organizations who obey the law. This idea is considered as an attempt to subordinate the non-governmental sector to the authorities in Georgia... How do you view the initiative of launching a grant program for non-governmental organizations?

More money, more financial support for independent civil society organizations is highly welcome. But again, these organizations must be free and independent. No pressure from outside, no pressure from the government. But okay, if the government is ready to strengthen civil society, to increase the financial support, why not? But again, they have to make clear the independence of this institution.

Recently, the US Department of State imposed visa restrictions against more than 60 Georgians and their family members for "participation in undermining democracy in Georgia". Sanctions have been implemented against the head of the Special Tasks Department, Zviad Kharazishvili, aka "Kharabe" and his deputy Miller Lagazauri, as well as the leaders of "Alt Info" - Konstantine Morgoshia and Zviad Makharadze. In the statement of the US Secretary of State, it is mentioned that the US is still concerned about human rights violations and anti-democratic actions in Georgia. What do you think is the political message of Washington's imposition of various restrictions on high-ranking officials operating in Georgia? (In Europe, what is the opinion about the sanctions, is it similar with what the United States of America is already doing in Georgia at the personnel level?)

This is another very alarming call for the political leaders of the country. Do not forget that the USA is one of the closest and most reliable ally of Georgia. We, as European Union have another very powerful instrument, and this is the EU perspective. Let me be very clear. If there is no turning point in this country, there is no chance to start accession talks with the European Union. That is much more important than individual sanctions. But I'm very sorry about that because not just the government, but also the people in this country would have to pay a very high price. That's exactly what I don't want. I want to help that Georgia has a chance to join the EU as soon as possible. I very much hope that the government finally understand what it really means, and they have to stop this anti-democratic policies immediately.

I don't want that visa liberalization to stop. Let me be very clear. I don't want that because I don't want that the young generation to pay a very high price for the mistakes of the government and the ruling party. I'm very much in favor of defending this very important measure. It's in the interest of the people, especially the young generation.

There is not much time left before the parliamentary elections of Georgia. How would you assess the pre-election environment in the country? Based on the information you have, how fair do you think the electoral environment is?

These elections are the most important ones in the history of the independent Georgia. It's an election not just about the future of the welfare state, our education, schools, housing. It's much more a referendum about the European future of the country. The people have a clear choice, democracy or authoritarianism, European perspective or isolation, freedom, European way of life, or Russian way of life. So it's up to the people. And that's why I expect, and not just me, but also the international community, free and fair elections. And that's why I expect, and not just me, but also the international community, free and fair elections. And I expect from the political institutions in this country that the international observers, but also the civil society activists would like to observe the work in the polling stations, can do their jobs.

In your opinion, if "Georgian Dream" will be able to gain a majority in the elections, which the ruling party itself is sure of, how do you imagine the Western prospects of the country? What impact could the ruling team's remaining in power have on the country's EU integration?

I'm quite sure that after the 26th of October, Georgia will become, again, the true capital of Europe. I do believe in the pro-European commitment of the people, so I don't want to speculate about a possible result. But I expect that all parties and all political institutions respect the result. That should be normal in a functioning democracy.

Thank you. My final question is about foreign policy vector of the country. How would you assess the current foreign policy course of Georgia in the light of the fact that in recent years the country has become even more economically dependent on Russia, while at the same time it is trying to get closer to China. To what extent do you agree with the already widespread assessment that Georgia's main foreign partners, Washington and Brussels, are being "replaced" by Beijing and Moscow?

There is no need from my side to teach the people in your country because Georgians know much more than others in Europe what Russian imperialism and colonialism really means. 20% of your territory are under Russian control for many, many years. That is a disgrace. The future and the presence of this country lies in the very heart of Europe. Yes, sometimes Chinese money is interesting, looks good, very easy. But don't forget what really matters for Beijing is dependency. They are not into democracy. They are not into freedom. They are not into liberty. They're not into rule of law. They're just into economic cooperation to bring a democracy like Georgia closer to an authoritarian regime like China. It doesn't mean that we stop or decouple our economic ties with China completely. But de-risking is a smart strategy. So if we cooperate and collaborate with China economically and politically, everybody in your country should know China will send you a bill, and you have to pay the bill.

I understand the ruling party quite well, and I completely disagree with the party who wants to stop the people of Georgia on their way towards the European Union. There are no misunderstanding. There are political controversies, and we should discuss it in a very fair in an open and transparent way, and that's why I'm here. Thank you so much.

Beka Beriashvili

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