Mrs. Anne Brasseur, President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE), has recently paid an official two-day visit to Georgia. The PACE leader met with Georgia’s political leadership and various political forces, representatives of the NGO sector and civil society, visited a settlement for Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) in Tserovani and the administrative boundary line at Khurvaleti. Georgian Journal was privileged to have an exclusive interview with Mrs. Brasseur, with whom we discussed challenges that Georgia is facing both internationally and internally.

-Let’s start with the sub-committee on frozen conflicts that has been set up at the PACE. Considering it won’t be a conflict resolution mechanism, what is the purpose of this committee and what leverages does it have to influence frozen conflicts in the region?

– First of all, it’s not a sub-committee on frozen conflicts per se; it’s a sub-committee on frozen conflicts between Council of Europe member states. Concerning the situation in Georgia, I visited the administrative boundary lines and I have to say it’s appalling to see that after the fall of Iron Curtain, new barriers are being built up again. Some of them are physical, some others are psychological, but here in Georgia, we see both. And that is, of course, against the vital principle of territorial integrity, which has to be defended; no one should be able to change borders by force. A huge issue linked to Abkhazia and South Ossetia is the human rights problem in those areas. These are people who belong to the 820 million citizens of 47 member states, and we cannot allow having black holes in human rights anywhere. That and the problem of IDP’s, whom I also visited, are huge issues that need to be addressed. I think that as an international community, we have to do everything possible to find a solution to these problems, but the solution absolutely must come through a dialogue. There are Geneva talks, but I personally have not seen much progress so far; this is really a huge challenge for your country and we, as PACE, are helping with the tools we have and that is parliamentary diplomacy.

– Let’s discuss a factor that has contributed greatly to the abundance of frozen conflict in the region. By that, I mean the factor of Russia. A while back, in 2014, when voting rights of Russian delegation at PACE were suspended, you weren’t exactly supportive of this decision, for one. On the contrary, you insisted on importance of maintaining dialogue, and personally maintained constant contact with Duma speaker Sergey Naryshkin and other Russian delegates. While I fully understand why you would value constructive dialogue so highly, do you think it is possible to have effective and result-oriented dialogue with Russia, considering the events that are taking place in Ukraine? What makes you think a dialogue with Russia would yield some kind of substantial, positive results?

– First of all, we suspended voting rights, not the credentials – it was the Russian delegation’s decision not to continue working with us. Also, you are right; I took the initiative of maintaining contact with Mr. Naryshkin, in order to continue to talk to him. What is the aim of it, you might ask? Well, it is only through dialogue that we can find a solution, because violence cannot serve as one. If they are isolated, they cannot get our information and our points of view, and a dialogue needs more than just one person. Therefore, in January, we decided to come back to the sanctions in April, to see if any progress had been made. There was no progress, so the sanctions remain in place and we also decided to come back to it in June and if situation is not improved, this time we will be having a look at the credentials of Russia in the PACE.

– And what exactly would Council of Europe gain from that? You already suspended their voting rights, the dialogue is no longer there, but it didn’t really make Russia reconsider its actions in Ukraine, did it now? And more than that, won’t this kind of futile sanctions have a nasty side effect of giving those with imperialistic views in Russia a perfect excuse to paint CoE and the whole West as the proverbial icon of enemy, that is vying and conspiring to harm Mother Russia?

– Well, in that case we are dealing with propaganda. If that is the case, then we would be blackmailed and we would have to say, well, we cannot resort to sanctions, because if we do, then we are seen as if taking away the voting right, which is most democratic right, a basic, fundamental right in democracy. And up to now, we are the only international organization which took sanctions to parliamentary level – because our rules and our principles, starting with territorial integrity, have been violated. And if a body like PACE doesn’t speak out, who is going to?

– If I may be so bold and put it in somewhat sarcastic terms: It looks like CoE and the parliamentary assembly only know the rules of the game of democracy, which Russia is not willing to play, and as soon as you exit that democracy stadium, it looks like you are completely confused and do not know how to handle Russia anymore…

– No, I don’t think that we are lost. We have the rules and when those rules are violated, we have to take action. Remember, we also put sanctions on your country for refusing entry to one of our delegates. We put sanctions on Azerbaijan as well, for human rights violations. When Russians said they do not need the parliamentary assembly, I cannot say I was surprised, but we have to show that there is a limit.

– Speaking of human rights, you were vocal in criticizing Azerbaijan in that matter. How would you assess the situation in Georgia? And I also want to ask about recent discussions at PACE about politically motivated persecutions that allegedly are taking place in Georgia…

– I was discussing this matter with political leadership of Georgia and the head of Supreme Court as well, because reforms at the judiciary are urgently needed. Some progress has been made, but it’s not just about the prosecutor and pre-trial detention – it is also about the credibility of the judges and the whole judiciary. Another big issue is separation of powers - the judiciary is being interfered with, and that is not acceptable. This needs to be changed.

– Do you think this urgent need of reforms that you speak of has arisen during the last three years of the new government taking the country’s reins? Or was it also present during the former government’s 9 year tenure? Because I don’t recall much criticism of our judiciary from European leaders back then.

– I can only tell you that the fact is that the pre-trial detention and other mechanisms didn’t work as they were supposed to work in a well-functioning, independent judiciary. And I maintain that there must not be impunity – if there is a violation, be it ordinary citizens, politicians or human rights defenders, law enforcement agents or whoever they are, the law must apply to all. But the investigation has to be open, transparent, in due time and carried out via an equally open and transparent procedure. And in this regard, lot of changes have to be made to the legislation and training of personnel as well.

Author: Vazha Tavberidze